--- ColoIRC has been started by krzys_h 2016-04-02 21:38:17
[2016-04-02 21:38:17] ColoBOT: ColoIRC has been started
[2016-04-02 21:38:17] ColoBOT: We remind, that it's forbidden to talk about things unrelated with Colobot and ICC during ColoIRC (Regulations, §25)
[2016-04-02 21:38:17] krzys_h: !coloirc start
[2016-04-02 21:38:22] krzys_h: oh, it still works :>
[2016-04-02 21:38:33] krzys_h: I think changing the topic is commented out, but whatever
[2016-04-02 21:38:53] krzys_h: So, the main problems I want to discuss is:
[2016-04-02 21:39:16] tomaszkax86: I think we should all remember that Colobot: Gold Edition is not a new game but revision and refreshment of existing game
[2016-04-02 21:39:26] krzys_h: 1. Our versioning scheme has no way of handling minor bugfixes
[2016-04-02 21:40:05] krzys_h: this could be fixed in a few ways
[2016-04-02 21:40:21] krzys_h: A. name this release 0.1.7.1, 0.1.7b or something like that
[2016-04-02 21:40:53] krzys_h: B. release this along with the debug menu as .1.8
[2016-04-02 21:41:42] krzys_h: C. change the versioning scheme from 0.1.7 to 1.7.0 (or 0.7.0), this is more 'proper' semantic versioning version to do it
[2016-04-02 21:41:57] krzys_h: and B leads to: 2. our releases are quite rare
[2016-04-02 21:42:54] krzys_h: erihel made a really good point that it might be better to make releases more often
[2016-04-02 21:43:03] krzys_h: this has some adventages, but it also has some drawbaks
[2016-04-02 21:43:15] krzys_h: + the project seems more active
[2016-04-02 21:43:58] krzys_h: + we stop trying to make each release BETTER THAN EVER
[2016-04-02 21:44:34] tomaszkax86: We should probably have a rule: no adding issues to milestones directly, ESPECIALLY current milestone
[2016-04-02 21:44:50] ColoBOT: * Smok joined.
[2016-04-02 21:44:51] krzys_h: - the releases are not tested as thoroughly, might have more bugs
[2016-04-02 21:44:52] tomaszkax86: If we have a major bug we need to get fixed ASAP, we should have a tag for it
[2016-04-02 21:45:23] krzys_h: - release process will have to become automated or it's going to get really painful really fast
[2016-04-02 21:46:07] krzys_h: - after some time people will expect us to make releases that often, which may put more pressure on us
[2016-04-02 21:46:33] krzys_h: (end of monologue)
[2016-04-02 21:46:35] krzys_h: :P
[2016-04-02 21:46:49] tomangelo: I think this time it could be A, but from (0.)1.8 we could move to new system
[2016-04-02 21:47:01] tomaszkax86: I can agree we should stop trying to make perfect releases
[2016-04-02 21:48:02] tomangelo: Yes, smaller releases could be good, now there is not much time to test everything related to new features
[2016-04-02 21:48:34] krzys_h: regarding the possibly more bugs problem, as we can clearly see, we get bugs in releases anyway
[2016-04-02 21:48:52] tomaszkax86: But they get found faster
[2016-04-02 21:49:21] krzys_h: good point
[2016-04-02 21:49:23] tomaszkax86: I'd never come across current one because I don't make clean installation
[2016-04-02 21:49:32] tomangelo: There still might be possible bugs like this one, but new features could be better tested, instead of derping around A, B, C, D, refactored E and F, we'll check only A,D and F, but more complex
[2016-04-02 21:49:37] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 12https://git.io/v2MA6 11RaptorParkowsky commented on issue #724: Appearance customization standard presets
[2016-04-02 21:50:08] krzys_h: bugs would be detected faster if more of actual players used the dev branch
[2016-04-02 21:50:42] tomaszkax86: Yeah, well, not so many people want to play potentially unstable version
[2016-04-02 21:51:01] tomaszkax86: But if we make semi-stable releases more often, more bugs can be found
[2016-04-02 21:51:16] krzys_h: making releases more often is essentialy making them less stable
[2016-04-02 21:51:21] tomangelo: Public pre-releases maybe?
[2016-04-02 21:51:26] krzys_h: but not less stable than dev is, I hope
[2016-04-02 21:51:38] krzys_h: tomangelo: too few people would actually use it, I'm afraid
[2016-04-02 21:51:52] erihel: no point of pre release
[2016-04-02 21:52:03] tomaszkax86: I think we should just stop thinking about "releases" and think about "milestones"
[2016-04-02 21:52:10] krzys_h: ++
[2016-04-02 21:52:24] erihel: i agree of freezing next milestone and not touching it event with bugs
[2016-04-02 21:52:33] tomaszkax86: Pre-releases make no sense, anyone can come here and see what we did and test it
[2016-04-02 21:52:36] erihel: and mark critical bug as blockers and fix them asap
[2016-04-02 21:53:34] tomaszkax86: I think we should make stricter milestones
[2016-04-02 21:54:08] tomaszkax86: But I'm not sure if it's necessary to make any strict order
[2016-04-02 21:54:57] tomangelo: I got an idea with versioning system: x.y.z, where x will be status of project (A for Alpha, B - Beta, full stable game with 1,2,3, etc). Y for each big milestone (like current ones), Z for smaller changes, features, bugfixes etc
[2016-04-02 21:54:57] tomaszkax86: Current one is: New programming course, maybe finalized new graphics engines, and some more stuff delayed from 0.1.7 (?)
[2016-04-02 21:55:04] erihel: maybe naming is bad? instead of giving it number mark it by it main goal?
[2016-04-02 21:55:31] tomaszkax86: How about we split those into individual "big problems" we can do any time?
[2016-04-02 21:55:33] erihel: i don't like the alpha, beta naming in this project
[2016-04-02 21:56:03] krzys_h: we are still called "alpha" while the project is completly playable and mostly stable
[2016-04-02 21:56:04] erihel: those milestones can be done anytime, many issues of next milestones are closed long ago
[2016-04-02 21:56:17] tomaszkax86: Some people could work on new programming course for 2 months, during that time someone else could fix (again) delayed stuff
[2016-04-02 21:56:44] tomangelo: So models update will be A.9, bugfixes and small features will be A.9.1, A.9.2, then CBOT rewriting will be A.10, with A.10.1, A.10.2 etc.
[2016-04-02 21:56:49] tomaszkax86: So we would have milestones BUT we can fix them in any order
[2016-04-02 21:57:03] tomaszkax86: We don't need codes, just simpler names
[2016-04-02 21:57:06] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: this introduces problems that we can't release while somebody is in the middle of work
[2016-04-02 21:57:10] krzys_h: branches solve that
[2016-04-02 21:57:22] krzys_h: but merge conflicts will become a mess after some time
[2016-04-02 21:57:43] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 12https://git.io/v2MA6 11krzys-h commented on issue #724: Appearance customization standard presets
[2016-04-02 21:57:55] erihel: gitflow? https://www.atlassian.com/git/tutorials/comparing-workflows/gitflow-workflow
[2016-04-02 21:59:06] tomaszkax86: I'm pretty sure we can make releases even when something is not yet completed
[2016-04-02 21:59:14] tomaszkax86: Game has to be _playable_
[2016-04-02 22:01:24] tomaszkax86: Alternative engines, for example, haven't been completed for a long time, but Colobot works fine
[2016-04-02 22:02:19] tomaszkax86: We had some problems with new font rendering so it's probably not finished, but Colobot works fine otherwise
[2016-04-02 22:03:50] erihel: there are some changes that would have to be mostly complete to be merged
[2016-04-02 22:06:28] ColoBOT: * Smok quit.
[2016-04-02 22:12:34] RaptorParkowsky: Personally I'd like to use the #.#.#-# system and fix for 0.1.7 release as 0.1.7-1. And then we would start releasing smaller releases like that. The bigger releases would be then 0.1.8-x etc.
[2016-04-02 22:13:56] tomaszkax86: Current versioning scheme doesn't match with reality
[2016-04-02 22:14:11] erihel: yey more numbers
[2016-04-02 22:14:14] krzys_h: I don't really like that option as it doesn't match semantic versioning too well
[2016-04-02 22:14:16] tomangelo: I think that 0 on beginning is quite obsolete.
[2016-04-02 22:14:20] krzys_h: http://semver.org/
[2016-04-02 22:14:21] RaptorParkowsky: Ang erihel imo have right about silliness of the alpha/beta/gamma/ReleaseCandidate naming.
[2016-04-02 22:14:25] tomaszkax86: We've made a lot of progress, yet we are at version 0.1.7
[2016-04-02 22:14:59] tomaszkax86: Besides, in versioning, numbers don't mean much, we might as well have version 0.1.10 and so on later
[2016-04-02 22:15:30] krzys_h: after looking at releases so far, we should be in fact on 0.6.0
[2016-04-02 22:15:44] krzys_h: 0.1.0, 0.1.1, 0.1.2 made sense
[2016-04-02 22:15:53] tomaszkax86: This in no way describes how much progress have been made on the game, so we should probably change the scheme
[2016-04-02 22:15:55] krzys_h: 0.1.3 should really be 0.2.0
[2016-04-02 22:16:07] krzys_h: and we should have increased the middle number since then
[2016-04-02 22:16:24] tomaszkax86: Also, there is no "alpha"
[2016-04-02 22:16:38] tomaszkax86: We get to "1.0.0 alpha" and then what? "0.1 beta"?
[2016-04-02 22:16:50] tomaszkax86: There is no point
[2016-04-02 22:17:29] tomangelo: Imho we could be now in Beta stage, as game is playable and don't have so much serious bugs.
[2016-04-02 22:18:52] erihel: having alpha/beta fore few years with several releases makes no sense imo
[2016-04-02 22:20:37] RaptorParkowsky: So now I see there's no point of using those names. Number versioning only.
[2016-04-02 22:23:47] RaptorParkowsky: And well, if GOLD is playable and enough stable, then we could just name it 1.x.y. The x would be for bigger releases/refactorings, y would be for smaller releases that would be released every 2-3 months.
[2016-04-02 22:24:23] krzys_h: 2-3 months is still too long I think
[2016-04-02 22:24:32] tomaszkax86: Or we could use versioning scheme similar to one used for Ubuntu
[2016-04-02 22:24:49] tomangelo: Cbot refactoring, UI refactoring, it will quite fast get version 3.x
[2016-04-02 22:25:13] krzys_h: I think 1 month should be the absolute max for patch releases
[2016-04-02 22:25:34] krzys_h: tomangelo: who said we have to bump some number on cbot and ui refactoring
[2016-04-02 22:25:52] krzys_h: that's how we initially planned it, but a lot has happened since
[2016-04-02 22:25:57] tomaszkax86: Which is why I don't like numbers
[2016-04-02 22:26:03] krzys_h: we did not expect to stay on 0.1.x for so long
[2016-04-02 22:26:14] tomaszkax86: I don't even remember what we have planned for 0.1.9
[2016-04-02 22:26:39] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: 0.1.9 is new model format with animation
[2016-04-02 22:26:57] krzys_h: (which honestly should be another bump of a number somewhere higher)
[2016-04-02 22:27:15] RaptorParkowsky: Ok then, 1 release per month, if we can do this. tomangelo: For example there will be UI refactoring in 1.13.x. 2.x.y I would got to Colobot 2 project rather.
[2016-04-02 22:27:33] tomangelo: 0.1.9 was old 0.1.8. Few months ago there was no such milestone as 0.1.9, after 0.1.8 there was 0.2.0
[2016-04-02 22:28:16] tomaszkax86: You know UI could be refactored before models? Current versioning kinda tells us what to do, but we often ignore more important issues we could be doing now
[2016-04-02 22:28:17] krzys_h: Bumping major version is essentialy anything backwards-incompatible. I don't think we'll have anything that could be considered backwards-incompatible in that sense until Colobot
[2016-04-02 22:28:21] krzys_h: 2
[2016-04-02 22:29:18] krzys_h: our current workflow is mostly to plan out the refactoring and fix all bugs in the next release
[2016-04-02 22:29:23] krzys_h: which is really TERRIBLE
[2016-04-02 22:29:32] krzys_h: as it delays releases A LOT
[2016-04-02 22:29:50] tomaszkax86: I'd say it's workslow then
[2016-04-02 22:31:04] krzys_h: Transition from pre-alpha to alpha was 37 issues. Transition from 0.1.5 to 0.1.6 was 100 issues. I guess this shows the problem quite well.
[2016-04-02 22:31:22] erihel: you know that after x.9 there can be x.10 and not (x+1).0?
[2016-04-02 22:31:30] krzys_h: yeah, we do
[2016-04-02 22:31:36] RaptorParkowsky: I personally don't see any problem there...
[2016-04-02 22:31:43] krzys_h: and I actually consider that a better option
[2016-04-02 22:32:01] tomangelo: 0.1.3 -> 0.1.4 - 2 issues
[2016-04-02 22:32:41] krzys_h: tomangelo: actually it's <not maintaining milestones properly> -> 0.1.3
[2016-04-02 22:33:14] krzys_h: we used to have all issues past "alpha" (0.1.0) marked as "beta" milestone
[2016-04-02 22:34:39] tomaszkax86: Why was it changed?
[2016-04-02 22:34:50] krzys_h: but 0.1.3 to 0.1.4 was 15 issues
[2016-04-02 22:35:05] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: this is a good question
[2016-04-02 22:35:29] tomangelo: oh, my bad
[2016-04-02 22:35:33] krzys_h: probably the amount of issues just became so big that we needed some organization to plan what to work on next
[2016-04-02 22:36:17] krzys_h: like all the CBot issues which we are not going to touch until CBot refactoring because the code is going to get rewritten anyway
[2016-04-02 22:37:00] RaptorParkowsky: I have strange feeling that there's no good milestoning system for our demands...
[2016-04-02 22:38:46] tomaszkax86: Good milestoning would be to simply make milestones like "Refactoring CBot" with issues related to refactoring CBot
[2016-04-02 22:39:23] tomaszkax86: When we do it is not important, we can do it before or after or even during refactoring of some other stuff
[2016-04-02 22:40:15] RaptorParkowsky: Another strange feeling says to me that we need total rebranding. New milestoning system, new main website, new logos... Everything is going to refactor, duh, duh, duh... :P
[2016-04-02 22:40:26] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: NO
[2016-04-02 22:40:34] tomangelo: ??
[2016-04-02 22:40:36] krzys_h: STOP DOING MORE CHANGES THAN NEEDED, PLEASE
[2016-04-02 22:40:46] tomangelo: Logos? Main site?
[2016-04-02 22:41:04] tomaszkax86: We don't need these changes at all
[2016-04-02 22:41:25] tomaszkax86: Change them and... then what? You think anyone will notice?
[2016-04-02 22:41:41] RaptorParkowsky: Well, not exactly, because WordPress is enough, but well, there's still a lot work to get this main website to look good.
[2016-04-02 22:41:59] tomangelo: Like what?
[2016-04-02 22:42:14] tomaszkax86: Main website is an unrelated problem
[2016-04-02 22:42:53] krzys_h: The system proposed by tomaszkax86 is good for bigger things like CBot or UI refactoring that are likely to be developed on separate branches. I don't see how we could use it for small things.
[2016-04-02 22:43:07] radyjko: As a random internet individual who happened to witness this discussion I can confirm website is alright
[2016-04-02 22:43:24] tomaszkax86: krzys_h: do we need milestones for tiny little things that happen in a week or less?
[2016-04-02 22:43:46] tomaszkax86: Issues are a TODO list
[2016-04-02 22:44:10] krzys_h: Okay, I get it. Just leave small things without a milestone assigned.
[2016-04-02 22:44:37] tomaszkax86: Yep
[2016-04-02 22:44:51] RaptorParkowsky: Ok ,so how this system is going to work and look?
[2016-04-02 22:45:00] krzys_h: but then we need some system to prioritize them, like what definetly needs to be fixed before next release
[2016-04-02 22:45:09] krzys_h: I mean mostly "latest dev only" issues
[2016-04-02 22:45:09] tomaszkax86: Some big bugs that cause crashes should be marked appropriately, like "critical"
[2016-04-02 22:45:24] tomaszkax86: Medium problems could have their own label
[2016-04-02 22:45:46] tomaszkax86: Small issues that don't appear often or are proposals would have their own categories
[2016-04-02 22:46:01] krzys_h: and Raptor's random unnecessary changes should get a "low priority" label :P
[2016-04-02 22:46:20] RaptorParkowsky: krzys_h: Veri funi
[2016-04-02 22:46:35] RaptorParkowsky: tomaszkax86: ++
[2016-04-02 22:47:17] tomaszkax86: I think GL21 and GL33 engines should have a separate milestone
[2016-04-02 22:47:36] RaptorParkowsky: I rather would expect my own labels like: OldRaptorPC and NewRaptorPC...
[2016-04-02 22:47:58] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: we already discussed adding a "Raptor-only issue" label :P
[2016-04-02 22:48:07] tomaszkax86: In general, we can work on them any time and changes to them shouldn't cause game's instability
[2016-04-02 22:48:47] tomaszkax86: So if there's a bug related to those engines, we add it to that milestone instead of marking it as a critical thing or something
[2016-04-02 22:49:00] RaptorParkowsky: krzys_h: Yeah, I saw it. And I hate you so much for this that I want to eat you... :P
[2016-04-02 22:49:13] krzys_h: That's what I'm worried about. You can never guarantinee that a change won't cause instability. Not with the current depepndency mess in the code.
[2016-04-02 22:50:04] tomaszkax86: Unless you explicitly enable those engines, they won't crash the game
[2016-04-02 22:50:16] RaptorParkowsky: So this milestoning system is good, but rather for future non-dependency GOLD version?
[2016-04-02 22:50:27] krzys_h: For engines, yes. I'm talking about other things.
[2016-04-02 22:50:36] tomaszkax86: The only problem is shared code in glutil.cpp but this can be marked as "critical" and fixed ASAP
[2016-04-02 22:51:07] krzys_h: still, you sometimes do make changes to the CDevice API to improve performange in new engines and that may break the GL14 engine too
[2016-04-02 22:52:03] tomaszkax86: CDevice interface will likely need to be changed drastically
[2016-04-02 22:52:43] tomaszkax86: Lots of stuff should be moved from CEngine to CDevice
[2016-04-02 22:53:00] tomaszkax86: And some methods should be removed or renamed or changed somehow
[2016-04-02 22:53:45] tomaszkax86: I'm trying to make sure default engine is operational but if there's a bug there, it is a critical bug
[2016-04-02 22:54:14] tomaszkax86: Well, unless it doesn't break the game, but it is still bad
[2016-04-02 22:55:39] RaptorParkowsky: There's always possibility that something will break the game. Especially when that old guy Jenkins is compiling... Argh, I hate him so much!
[2016-04-02 22:55:49] tomaszkax86: We should make a list of big things and small things
[2016-04-02 22:56:11] tomangelo: How Jenkins would break the game?
[2016-04-02 22:56:21] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: what does Jenkins have to do with errors in the code? D:
[2016-04-02 22:56:57] tomaszkax86: I like Jenkins, he tells me if I screw up and code doesn't compile on gcc
[2016-04-02 22:57:33] RaptorParkowsky: Nothing. I'm just saying that Jenkins releases so much badly compiled builds because of him's bad managing of the RAM...
[2016-04-02 22:58:07] tomangelo: What does have "bad ram managing" of Jenkins to Colobots build?
[2016-04-02 22:58:11] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: it's usually enough to click "build now" manually in the web interface ;)
[2016-04-02 22:58:30] krzys_h: and I still don't understand what does it have to do with bugs in the code
[2016-04-02 22:58:36] RaptorParkowsky: I didn't have that button.
[2016-04-02 22:58:45] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: because you have no account there
[2016-04-02 22:59:06] krzys_h: When I'm not online, tomaszkax86 and piotrdz do
[2016-04-02 22:59:14] krzys_h: have them too
[2016-04-02 23:00:08] RaptorParkowsky: Argh, make account there, make account here... There's so many places that I must to remember my passwords...
[2016-04-02 23:00:20] krzys_h: now, we still haven't decided how to fix the 0.1.7 bugfix issue
[2016-04-02 23:00:27] tomaszkax86: I believe he thinks that "build found unstable" is a serious problem
[2016-04-02 23:01:15] tomaszkax86: I think, at least for now, we fix current issue and make correctional release 0.1.7b
[2016-04-02 23:01:42] krzys_h: That's what I think too
[2016-04-02 23:02:04] RaptorParkowsky: Yeah, 0.1.7 was just a Prima Aprilis joke.
[2016-04-02 23:02:27] tomaszkax86: Then we can make further decisions related to versioning and milestones
[2016-04-02 23:04:44] RaptorParkowsky: Eh, I you would just listen to me and wait a little bit longer before releasing 0.1.7, then it would be probably working...
[2016-04-02 23:05:22] tomangelo: Well, you were inactive
[2016-04-02 23:05:26] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: I asked if anybody has anything against releasing 0.1.7 now and you didn't say anything
[2016-04-02 23:05:47] krzys_h: I waited about 3 days after I announced the planned release date
[2016-04-02 23:06:41] tomaszkax86: And I was insisting we should have released much earlier
[2016-04-02 23:06:47] RaptorParkowsky: That time I was in my job and you were destroying my refactored logos, so how I was supposed to test that in time?
[2016-04-02 23:07:17] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: you are testing all the time anyway, not just before release
[2016-04-02 23:07:47] krzys_h: and that release was during holidays to make sure as many people had time as possible
[2016-04-02 23:08:14] RaptorParkowsky: Because dev builds are working good. The problem is possibly with merging or release building flags.
[2016-04-02 23:08:38] tomangelo: It's not with flags
[2016-04-02 23:08:49] krzys_h: tomangelo: it is a bit
[2016-04-02 23:08:54] krzys_h: it's about -DDEV_BUILD=1
[2016-04-02 23:09:03] RaptorParkowsky: But I'm just a silly blondie, I don't know how this code work until I run binary file.
[2016-04-02 23:09:05] krzys_h: that makes the log get saved in local directory instead of save directory
[2016-04-02 23:09:07] tomangelo: It's about it's separate part of code
[2016-04-02 23:09:23] krzys_h: and it happens ONLY if you remove the whole save directory
[2016-04-02 23:09:58] krzys_h: so it's almost unnoticeable during normal development
[2016-04-02 23:10:39] RaptorParkowsky: So what about stand-alone linux build, where libCBot.so can't be found?
[2016-04-02 23:11:00] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=".:$LD_LIBRARY_PATH"
[2016-04-02 23:11:33] krzys_h: so, what do we do? 0.1.7b?
[2016-04-02 23:11:36] krzys_h: anybody against?
[2016-04-02 23:11:41] tomangelo: 0.1.7b
[2016-04-02 23:11:46] krzys_h: waiting if Simbax is going to say anything since he just joined
[2016-04-02 23:12:18] RaptorParkowsky: krzys_h: I thought it was supposed to be set as game directory as default in stand-alone builds... :/
[2016-04-02 23:12:20] Simbax: Ah, I have nothing to say in case of milestones
[2016-04-02 23:12:42] Simbax: Just choose something, I see you've already discussed it
[2016-04-02 23:13:00] Simbax: I wanted to ask a question about the new programming course
[2016-04-02 23:13:24] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: it should in portable builds
[2016-04-02 23:13:42] tomaszkax86: Simbax: this could be a separate milestone, not tied to any specific version
[2016-04-02 23:13:44] krzys_h: but notice that I intentionaly removed the word "portable" on the main page ;)
[2016-04-02 23:14:11] RaptorParkowsky: 0.1.7b is good to me and my sense of aesthetics.
[2016-04-02 23:14:22] krzys_h: making additional portable builds is twice as much work
[2016-04-02 23:15:09] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot master] 14aed8bc0 12https://git.io/vV8bh 11krzys-h: Bump version to 0.1.7b
[2016-04-02 23:15:10] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 11krzys-h created new tag colobot-gold-0.1.7b-alpha
[2016-04-02 23:15:10] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot 04F] 11krzys-h merged master -> refs/tags/colobot-gold-0.1.7b-alpha
[2016-04-02 23:15:10] erihel: RaptorParkowsky: is it mathematically correct?
[2016-04-02 23:15:36] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 12https://git.io/vVl9a 11krzys-h closed issue #755: Crash when save directory doesn't exist or the log file cannot be opened for some reason
[2016-04-02 23:15:42] Simbax: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vXOb4-UZrTepNfv3cGYzQNajyXFnlPJFFnxe7529_aA/edit is this the plan that one can be working on?
[2016-04-02 23:15:43] RaptorParkowsky: krzys_h: Releasing is like final rendering. It have to take some time. And stand-alone == portable to me...
[2016-04-02 23:15:58] tomaszkax86: What's the difference between portable and non-portable anyway?
[2016-04-02 23:16:06] erihel: save dirs
[2016-04-02 23:16:17] erihel: and data dir where game looks for files
[2016-04-02 23:16:53] tomaszkax86: Well, I personally prefer the "portable" version then
[2016-04-02 23:16:58] erihel: krzys_h: you will only bump colobot or data/music as well?
[2016-04-02 23:17:23] krzys_h: Simbax: to be honest, I'm considering reverting to he previous version (the non-CeeBot-Teen one)
[2016-04-02 23:17:24] tomaszkax86: I'm sick and tired of looking for where some game put save files
[2016-04-02 23:17:37] krzys_h: erihel: that's what I was going to ask next. should I do that?
[2016-04-02 23:18:05] Simbax: I mean, it was almost unnoticed, and I would gladly work on this course, but I don't want to be half done and then somebody suddenly says "this is wrong, this is against CBOT God, remove it, change it, burn it" or smth :D
[2016-04-02 23:18:06] erihel: do as you like, i'm asking as it affects my packages
[2016-04-02 23:18:16] RaptorParkowsky: erihel: Indeed. Mathematically correct. How you know about this? You don't have (recognized) account on forum...
[2016-04-02 23:18:20] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: installer builds cannot be portable as you cannot write to Program Files
[2016-04-02 23:18:29] erihel: got a message that music is outdated but it's not it was just a version bump
[2016-04-02 23:18:53] erihel: RaptorParkowsky: there was a talk about logo here
[2016-04-02 23:18:55] tomaszkax86: krzys_h: what normal gamer installs games to Program files?
[2016-04-02 23:19:15] tomaszkax86: It is unsafe
[2016-04-02 23:19:33] Simbax: that's news for me
[2016-04-02 23:19:42] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: that's the default location
[2016-04-02 23:19:49] krzys_h: and I personally rarely change it
[2016-04-02 23:20:00] tomaszkax86: Especially now that there are TWO Program files directories
[2016-04-02 23:20:32] krzys_h: on >= Vista you cannot write to program files without admin privilegles, so I would think that is actually safer
[2016-04-02 23:20:43] Simbax: or more irritating
[2016-04-02 23:20:48] tomaszkax86: Having two versions of the same game (32-bit and 64-bit) "properly" installed is ridiculous
[2016-04-02 23:20:58] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: the installer chooses the correct one depending on what system you have
[2016-04-02 23:21:11] krzys_h: it does not currently allow you to install both
[2016-04-02 23:21:22] tomaszkax86: I never use Program files, I actually use separate partition for games and other stuff, like D:\games\
[2016-04-02 23:21:26] krzys_h: and it chooses the correct directory too
[2016-04-02 23:22:04] tomaszkax86: Yeah, but what if you run 2 different installers?
[2016-04-02 23:22:11] Simbax: my steam is in Program Files and most of my games are on steam and I never had any issues
[2016-04-02 23:22:19] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: there is only one installer
[2016-04-02 23:22:27] krzys_h: and it picks the correct version for your system
[2016-04-02 23:22:28] RaptorParkowsky: I guess we should put whole GOLD into C:\Users\%user%\... Like Minecraft or sth... :P
[2016-04-02 23:22:42] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: no we shouldn't
[2016-04-02 23:22:53] tomaszkax86: That's actually ridiculous idea
[2016-04-02 23:23:01] tomaszkax86: It worked for Minecraft back when it was small
[2016-04-02 23:23:03] Simbax: C:\Games\Colobot
[2016-04-02 23:23:12] RaptorParkowsky: I know, that's why I'm laughing...
[2016-04-02 23:23:38] krzys_h: I don't think we need a version bump for data and music
[2016-04-02 23:23:50] tomaszkax86: And I keep my Steam games on D: as well
[2016-04-02 23:24:06] krzys_h: especially that we just appended "b" at the end, it's not really a full "bump" even
[2016-04-02 23:24:17] RaptorParkowsky: krzys_h: Of course, the problem is only with binaries.
[2016-04-02 23:24:21] Simbax: games generally don't have 64-bit versions anyway
[2016-04-02 23:24:29] tomangelo: Well, it depends
[2016-04-02 23:24:38] tomangelo: today AAA games don't have 32-bit versions
[2016-04-02 23:24:40] Simbax: and if they have, there is no 32bit binary usually
[2016-04-02 23:25:01] tomaszkax86: Some modern games come in two versions but installer chooses the right one or lets you decide
[2016-04-02 23:25:06] Simbax: I am not an expert on today triple-A games
[2016-04-02 23:25:26] Simbax: mainly because they suck
[2016-04-02 23:25:27] Simbax: :P
[2016-04-02 23:25:39] ColoBOT: TODO: Unknown GitHub event: release
[2016-04-02 23:25:47] krzys_h: I still did not implement this ;)
[2016-04-02 23:25:49] tomaszkax86: I personally like to have a choice during installation
[2016-04-02 23:25:51] krzys_h: https://github.com/colobot/colobot/releases/tag/colobot-gold-0.1.7b-alpha
[2016-04-02 23:26:38] tomaszkax86: And many AAA games require Direct3D 11, which sucks for some gamers
[2016-04-02 23:27:20] tomaszkax86: Not that it makes any difference, some of those games are already too heavy to run on new hardware...
[2016-04-02 23:27:38] krzys_h: I had an idea for a challenge to add to the new programming course but I don't remember what it was now :<
[2016-04-02 23:27:38] Simbax: and they don't even look that great...
[2016-04-02 23:28:02] tomangelo: "Because console players would feel like they're worst"
[2016-04-02 23:28:32] tomaszkax86: How can we check if player drew some specific shape in an exercise?
[2016-04-02 23:28:49] krzys_h: Oh, I remember now. Races :>
[2016-04-02 23:29:10] Simbax: consoles are actually the only thing which stops developers from being completely reckless in terms of optimization and optimization
[2016-04-02 23:29:15] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: we cannot yet
[2016-04-02 23:29:15] radyjko: @krzys_h Is it that hard to come up with challenge idea? This game can make simplest things challenging
[2016-04-02 23:29:26] Simbax: and required hardware *
[2016-04-02 23:29:39] krzys_h: CeeBot-Teen used just waypoints without actually checking the drawing
[2016-04-02 23:29:48] RaptorParkowsky: So bad I have no possibility to test Win32 installer/portable GOLD 0.1.7b builds now. Firstly I have to build my old computer into my second casing and restore my Windows XP from partition image... :/
[2016-04-02 23:29:53] krzys_h: I'm hoping we could fix that in Gold
[2016-04-02 23:29:54] tomangelo: IMHO it's more like "let's lower details" instead of "optimise it more"
[2016-04-02 23:30:11] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: First I need to make these builds ;)
[2016-04-02 23:30:34] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot dev] 144fe1d94 12https://git.io/vV8Nj 11krzys-h: Merge branch 'master' into dev
[2016-04-02 23:30:45] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot-data] 11krzys-h merged master -> dev
[2016-04-02 23:30:45] Simbax: tomangelo: you're probably right unfortunately, but at least they work
[2016-04-02 23:30:47] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 144fe1d94 12https://git.io/vV8Nj 07Build #382 in progress... - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-gold/branch/dev/382/
[2016-04-02 23:31:23] krzys_h: *akhem* [2016-04-02 21:38:17] ColoBOT: We remind, that it's forbidden to talk about things unrelated with Colobot and ICC during ColoIRC (Regulations, §25)
[2016-04-02 23:31:27] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 144fe1d94 12https://git.io/vV8Nj 04Build #278 failed in 42 sec - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-libc++/278/
[2016-04-02 23:31:30] RaptorParkowsky: krzys_h: I know, I'm just saying that for future.
[2016-04-02 23:31:39] krzys_h: WHAT?
[2016-04-02 23:31:55] krzys_h: why does this not work
[2016-04-02 23:32:01] RaptorParkowsky: Jenkins! You old prick!
[2016-04-02 23:33:16] krzys_h: I'm so stupid. I thought I checked that it compiles. The code is in an inactive part of #ifdef...
[2016-04-02 23:33:45] krzys_h: erihel: did you update the arch packages already or can I force push this?
[2016-04-02 23:34:02] Simbax: Okay, so I'm asking again: is this plan final at least for first chapter so we can start working on it?
[2016-04-02 23:34:09] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 144fe1d94 12https://git.io/vV8Nj 03Build #382 succeeded in 3 min 25 sec - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-gold/branch/dev/382/
[2016-04-02 23:34:14] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot-data] 1490654dd 12https://git.io/vVLc0 07Build #49 in progress... - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-gold-data/branch/dev/49/
[2016-04-02 23:34:18] tomaszkax86: Simbax: I reviewed this plan and I think we can use it as a base for new programming course, but it needs to be completed, at least later parts
[2016-04-02 23:34:19] Simbax: I mean programming course of course
[2016-04-02 23:34:30] tomaszkax86: The first few chapters look solid enough for me
[2016-04-02 23:35:05] RaptorParkowsky: Simbax: Don't ask me, I'm out of idea about this stuff until we change the logo.
[2016-04-02 23:35:20] krzys_h: ...
[2016-04-02 23:35:33] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot-data] 1490654dd 12https://git.io/vVLc0 03Build #49 succeeded in 1 min 21 sec - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-gold-data/branch/dev/49/
[2016-04-02 23:35:59] RaptorParkowsky: New data? Why?
[2016-04-02 23:36:00] krzys_h: about programming course, compare the first chapters with https://colobot.info/forum/showthread.php?tid=633&pid=5999#pid5999
[2016-04-02 23:36:09] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: I just merged master -> dev
[2016-04-02 23:36:17] krzys_h: forgot to do it on 0.1.7 release
[2016-04-02 23:36:29] krzys_h: and decide which ones you like more
[2016-04-02 23:36:40] Simbax: RaptorParkowsky: THANK YOU FOR OPINION, YOU'RE SO HELPFUL
[2016-04-02 23:36:51] krzys_h: I feel like I'm mixing two conversations in one place
[2016-04-02 23:37:05] tomangelo: I'm still reading
[2016-04-02 23:38:35] tomaszkax86: To be honest, I don't exactly like the idea of exercises on some outside planet, and this crazy programming course would look like entirely new adventure
[2016-04-02 23:39:07] tomaszkax86: Which could be cool if executed properly, but I'm not sure if we can do that right
[2016-04-02 23:39:08] RaptorParkowsky: Simbax: You're welcome.
[2016-04-02 23:39:30] krzys_h: oh, you just reminded me, we still haven't really decided on the envrionment
[2016-04-02 23:39:45] krzys_h: there were ideas to make those in NASA buildings
[2016-04-02 23:39:57] tomaszkax86: I think exercises would be like an optional prequel to what happens in the game itself
[2016-04-02 23:40:06] krzys_h: ++
[2016-04-02 23:40:09] tomangelo: ++
[2016-04-02 23:40:18] tomaszkax86: You are being trained by NASA and evaluated
[2016-04-02 23:40:23] RaptorParkowsky: ++, but Emxx --
[2016-04-02 23:40:29] tomangelo: Testing systems before sending to space
[2016-04-02 23:40:38] tomaszkax86: Yep
[2016-04-02 23:40:43] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: he is in minority
[2016-04-02 23:40:49] tomaszkax86: So I think this should be on Earth
[2016-04-02 23:40:59] tomangelo: Maybe even before first expedition
[2016-04-02 23:41:03] tomaszkax86: Can be in some caves, NASA labs or something
[2016-04-02 23:41:06] krzys_h: maybe a-bit-less-damaged earth
[2016-04-02 23:41:08] Simbax: God damn it people, we don't even have the main plot discussed properly and you want to think about prequel
[2016-04-02 23:41:33] tomaszkax86: It's not an actual prequel...
[2016-04-02 23:41:33] krzys_h: Simbax: we don't want to have to redesign the whole thing again later
[2016-04-02 23:41:58] RaptorParkowsky: krzys_h: Already in exercises the Earth isn't really damaged, just like in free game.
[2016-04-02 23:42:01] Simbax: The main purpose of the programming course is to teach programming, I thought we have already decided that we'll make the exercises first and add the plot later
[2016-04-02 23:42:19] tomaszkax86: The first official mission states that you were selected as best for it
[2016-04-02 23:42:19] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 144fe1d94 12https://git.io/vV8Nj 04Build #316 found unstable in 11 min - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-lint-run/316/
[2016-04-02 23:42:53] krzys_h: Simbax: we did, but tomaszkax86 unintentionally brought the topic of the envrionment again ;)
[2016-04-02 23:42:59] Simbax: krzys_h: the exercises are not complicated, the worst thing is SatCom, you said that yourself...
[2016-04-02 23:42:59] ColoBOT: I'm sorry but krzys_h is too lazy to translate this part.
[2016-04-02 23:42:59] ColoBOT: It's not a bug, it's a feature!
[2016-04-02 23:42:59] krzys_h: ColoBOT: STOP
[2016-04-02 23:43:15] krzys_h: Simbax: and I didn't change my mind
[2016-04-02 23:43:30] RaptorParkowsky: Simbax: I think it would be good idea to make the programming course on Alludo before we decide where it should be placed...
[2016-04-02 23:43:49] krzys_h: alludo is too raw and unsuitable to be released publicly at all
[2016-04-02 23:43:58] Simbax: So I suggest to focus on more urgent and important subjects here
[2016-04-02 23:44:09] krzys_h: erihel: you didn't answer my question
[2016-04-02 23:44:19] krzys_h: can I force-push this or is it too late already
[2016-04-02 23:45:07] tomaszkax86: I guess it's too late
[2016-04-02 23:45:19] erihel: what question?
[2016-04-02 23:45:31] krzys_h: 23:44 <+krzys_h> can I force-push this or is it too late already
[2016-04-02 23:45:40] erihel: no
[2016-04-02 23:45:50] krzys_h: so we are doing 0.1.7c then :/
[2016-04-02 23:45:50] erihel: i did not as i know you will break something
[2016-04-02 23:45:59] krzys_h: oh, good
[2016-04-02 23:46:10] erihel: but force pushing should be disabled in repo imo ;)
[2016-04-02 23:46:18] krzys_h: erihel: how did that fixup thing work again?
[2016-04-02 23:46:26] krzys_h: erihel: it is, i'll have to unlock it :P
[2016-04-02 23:46:30] erihel: and ppl trying to do so shot on site
[2016-04-02 23:46:49] erihel: fixup and autosquash ends up in rebase anyway
[2016-04-02 23:47:23] erihel: you know by force updating history you mess with forks?
[2016-04-02 23:48:03] krzys_h: erihel: there are no forks of master in last 10 minutes
[2016-04-02 23:48:45] erihel: you break older forks
[2016-04-02 23:49:26] krzys_h: http://i.imgur.com/Uh0Z2fL.png this is new
[2016-04-02 23:49:26] erihel: if they were updated
[2016-04-02 23:49:33] erihel: you won't see fork update
[2016-04-02 23:49:38] Simbax: dev-prog-course-2 branch huh?
[2016-04-02 23:49:56] krzys_h: Simbax: just ignore or remove it, I was experimenting with ceebot-teen levels
[2016-04-02 23:50:30] Simbax: mkay then
[2016-04-02 23:50:32] krzys_h: erihel: I don't get how I break older forks if they didn't pull in the upstream changes yet
[2016-04-02 23:51:36] krzys_h: oh, github has even per-branch permissions?
[2016-04-02 23:52:09] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot master] 141ab6a23 12https://git.io/vV8p2 11krzys-h: fixup! Fixed log file creation crash (#755)
[2016-04-02 23:52:12] krzys_h: you should just kill me
[2016-04-02 23:52:13] krzys_h: WHAT
[2016-04-02 23:52:16] krzys_h: STOP THAT
[2016-04-02 23:52:48] erihel: told you
[2016-04-02 23:53:04] erihel: why you push before you even check it?
[2016-04-02 23:53:12] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot master 04F] 1437d7235 12https://git.io/vV8pP 11krzys-h: Fixed log file creation crash (#755)
[2016-04-02 23:53:12] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot master 04F] 14e77f9db 12https://git.io/vV8p1 11krzys-h: Bump version to 0.1.7b
[2016-04-02 23:53:32] krzys_h: I checked it, I just missed it somehow
[2016-04-02 23:55:10] krzys_h: tag is updated too, ColoBOT didn't mention it for some reason
[2016-04-02 23:55:40] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot dev 04F] 1402633e3 12https://git.io/vV8p5 11krzys-h: Merge branch 'master' into dev
[2016-04-02 23:55:54] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 1402633e3 12https://git.io/vV8p5 07Build #383 in progress... - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-gold/branch/dev/383/
[2016-04-02 23:55:54] krzys_h: that's how trying to do a release fast ends... :/
[2016-04-02 23:56:07] Simbax: I don't know about this programming course. Maybe we should rewrite it from scratch again, but this time discuss every exercise slowly and thoroughly
[2016-04-02 23:56:44] erihel: i'll update packages in an hour or more
[2016-04-02 23:58:07] krzys_h: it shouldn't break now, I have actually TESTED the fixed fix THOROUGHLY to make sure I won't break anything again
[2016-04-02 23:58:42] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 1402633e3 12https://git.io/vV8p5 03Build #383 succeeded in 2 min 50 sec - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-gold/branch/dev/383/
[2016-04-02 23:59:01] krzys_h: Simbax: I don't exactly know about "from scratch", but some details do need to be polished probably
[2016-04-02 23:59:21] krzys_h: see? ColoBOT approves with my words (finally!)
[2016-04-02 23:59:29] Simbax: I'm not sure how to keep exercises simple yet entertaining at the same time. The first course jumps from one subject to other too fast, but the second makes too small steps on the other hand. And the other problem is how to make it so the player won't be feeling like he is reading a book instead of playing a game.
[2016-04-03 00:00:22] krzys_h: I was thinking about visualising the exercises somehow
[2016-04-03 00:00:34] Simbax: I definitely don't like the idea of copying previous programs to next exercises...
[2016-04-03 00:00:55] krzys_h: so instead of instructions like "you have to move 20m forward" you would have a visual arrow with a distance on it
[2016-04-03 00:01:05] tomaszkax86: Well, we'll have to think about it once more then
[2016-04-03 00:01:44] krzys_h: this means that if you don't have to sift though the instructions to get the distances/angles right
[2016-04-03 00:02:46] Simbax: There is also a problem with the target audience. It's impossible to write a good quality course which will appeal to younger and older people at the same time.
[2016-04-03 00:03:34] krzys_h: Simbax: I guess this is the real challenge we are faced with Gold Edition since the very beginning
[2016-04-03 00:03:48] krzys_h: "how to make it interesting for both younger and older players"
[2016-04-03 00:04:10] tomaszkax86: How about we make different versions?
[2016-04-03 00:04:24] Simbax: krzys_h: I'm afraid some people would not agree with you, they play Colobot for... other things than programming
[2016-04-03 00:04:24] tomaszkax86: There is Colobot and there are Ceebot games
[2016-04-03 00:04:50] krzys_h: Simbax: I didn't mean just programming, I meant the whole game in general
[2016-04-03 00:05:10] Simbax: that reminds me
[2016-04-03 00:05:23] RaptorParkowsky: I already proposed that easy exercises would be in CeeBot environment.
[2016-04-03 00:05:48] RaptorParkowsky: CeeBot-Teen*
[2016-04-03 00:05:50] Simbax: there was once an idea about making several sets of exercises
[2016-04-03 00:06:02] Simbax: I'm not sure if it was documented somewhere
[2016-04-03 00:06:09] tomaszkax86: It is already easy to switch to a different "game" by changing some directories
[2016-04-03 00:06:18] krzys_h: Simbax: It's in that big programming course topic I think
[2016-04-03 00:06:29] krzys_h: and it was delayed as "too much work for now"
[2016-04-03 00:06:34] Simbax: it would also solve a problem with importing levels from CeeBots
[2016-04-03 00:07:11] Simbax: additional menu where you choose which exercices/challenges maybe even missions you want to play
[2016-04-03 00:07:53] krzys_h: I think we should focus on 15+ years old audience for now, and then maybe add ceebot-teen like set of exercises for younger players
[2016-04-03 00:08:01] ColoBOT: [06colobot/colobot] 1402633e3 12https://git.io/vV8p5 04Build #317 found unstable in 12 min - 12http://compiled.colobot.info/jenkins/job/colobot-lint-run/317/
[2016-04-03 00:08:03] krzys_h: what were the original Ceebot target groups anyway?
[2016-04-03 00:08:22] Simbax: depends which Ceebot :P
[2016-04-03 00:08:46] ColoBOT: I'm sorry but krzys_h is too lazy to translate this part.
[2016-04-03 00:08:46] ColoBOT: It's not a bug, it's a feature!
[2016-04-03 00:08:46] krzys_h: ColoBOT: yeah I know, the debug menu has some code style issues
[2016-04-03 00:08:57] krzys_h: Simbax: I said target groupS, I meant all of them :p
[2016-04-03 00:09:10] krzys_h: http://ceebot.com/ceebot/family-e.php
[2016-04-03 00:09:18] krzys_h: I actually guessed 15+ right :P
[2016-04-03 00:09:29] RaptorParkowsky: Or maybe we could do easy exercises in two different versions, for younger and older players, but that's actually silly idea imho...
[2016-04-03 00:10:06] Simbax: it's actually not
[2016-04-03 00:10:18] tomaszkax86: We can make a harder version of the game
[2016-04-03 00:10:37] tomaszkax86: Programming-only story and hard challenges
[2016-04-03 00:11:01] Simbax: professional programmers wouldn't like to play a course which was build with someone who first time see how programming works in mind
[2016-04-03 00:11:23] Simbax: Novice / Advanced courses
[2016-04-03 00:11:24] radyjko: @tomaszkax86 But then, why not have easy challenges along with hard ones?
[2016-04-03 00:11:38] RaptorParkowsky: Simbax: Not silly? But this is going to fragmentate half of the programming course.
[2016-04-03 00:11:42] krzys_h: professional programmers would use professional documentation, assuming it's well designed
[2016-04-03 00:11:50] krzys_h: not the actual programming course
[2016-04-03 00:11:58] Simbax: Advanced would at the beginning just quickly introduce to CBOT syntax and then show more complicated examples
[2016-04-03 00:13:13] Simbax: well, yeah, programmers could just jump immediately jump to challenges as well
[2016-04-03 00:13:53] tomangelo: There was an idea about some flowchart "Do you wanna make advanced AI? No? So maybe something easier, some functions and stuff? No? So there is simple bot moving forward/backward. It will be ok"
[2016-04-03 00:14:45] Simbax: if Colobot could set the difficulty dynamically it would be awesome, but is it something we are capable of doing? :P
[2016-04-03 00:14:49] krzys_h: that was a cool concept, but I'm thinking something like this would be better for Colobot 2
[2016-04-03 00:15:20] tomangelo: Will be Colobot 2 copy of Gold?
[2016-04-03 00:15:21] krzys_h: everything is possible, it's just about how much work we want to put into it
[2016-04-03 00:15:33] krzys_h: tomangelo: it will be forked from Gold engine
[2016-04-03 00:15:37] tomangelo: I mean there will be 2 similar programming course games?
[2016-04-03 00:16:01] Simbax: I think Colobot 2 will have a totally different language
[2016-04-03 00:16:01] krzys_h: OR it will be the same engine if we manage to make it moddable enough
[2016-04-03 00:16:09] tomangelo: Oh
[2016-04-03 00:16:12] krzys_h: that is a far future though
[2016-04-03 00:16:25] krzys_h: maybe new language, definetly new plot
[2016-04-03 00:17:48] tomangelo: With limited computing power and memory, so you need to optimise your code :P
[2016-04-03 00:18:08] krzys_h: maybe :P
[2016-04-03 00:18:17] krzys_h: with Colobot 2, anything can happen
[2016-04-03 00:18:48] tomaszkax86: I think it would be far easier to replace CBot with an interpreted language like Lua than rewrite it right away
[2016-04-03 00:19:12] Simbax: easier =/= better
[2016-04-03 00:19:17] krzys_h: Simbax++
[2016-04-03 00:19:18] Simbax: anyway
[2016-04-03 00:19:26] krzys_h: we can't just drop CBot
[2016-04-03 00:19:50] RaptorParkowsky: Ok, so Easy programming course would be doubled in versions for younger players (6+;contain assets from CeeBot-Teen) and for older players (15+;contain assets from CoLoBoT + is optional prequel to the Missions). Then Medium and Hard exercises would be just Advanced Programming Course with all random, non-related to main plot line stuff.
[2016-04-03 00:19:50] krzys_h: I don't say we shouldn't add some real-world language as an alternative for expirenced players
[2016-04-03 00:19:51] tomaszkax86: Nobody said we can't
[2016-04-03 00:20:10] tomangelo: We could make additional languages via mods IMHO, with separate exercises
[2016-04-03 00:20:11] tomaszkax86: But CBot is not really a well-designed language
[2016-04-03 00:20:21] Simbax: what should we do right now? making just one programming course for 15+ begginers?
[2016-04-03 00:20:34] krzys_h: Simbax: that's exactly what I suggested
[2016-04-03 00:20:45] Simbax: yes, I know
[2016-04-03 00:21:04] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: we can fix the design, but we should remain mostly backwards-compatible
[2016-04-03 00:21:10] Simbax: so next question, what do we do about the already existing script
[2016-04-03 00:21:39] krzys_h: choose one and polish out all the details?
[2016-04-03 00:22:20] Simbax: maybe
[2016-04-03 00:22:42] Simbax: that probably needs a few days of discussion on the forum
[2016-04-03 00:22:58] krzys_h: or ColoIRCs like this one
[2016-04-03 00:22:58] RaptorParkowsky: Few flamewars*
[2016-04-03 00:23:25] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: nah, we are not changing the logos so we don't need a flamewar :P
[2016-04-03 00:23:59] RaptorParkowsky: I'll be forcing refactoring of the logos until my death.
[2016-04-03 00:24:29] Simbax: aren't flamewars against the Rules? maybe we should start using the forgotten option of giving warnings more
[2016-04-03 00:24:59] krzys_h: not*
[2016-04-03 00:25:05] Simbax: I'm getting tired of these stupid arguments
[2016-04-03 00:26:03] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: you should change "until my death" to "until I get banned"
[2016-04-03 00:27:13] RaptorParkowsky: I don't scared about banning etc. I just want justice and make the logos right.
[2016-04-03 00:28:17] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: but you should D:
[2016-04-03 00:28:28] tomaszkax86: Logos are not an important issue right now
[2016-04-03 00:28:42] krzys_h: you do not want me to do it :P
[2016-04-03 00:28:44] Simbax: I just want things to be fun and peaceful! Is anybody with me? Eh? Eh?...
[2016-04-03 00:28:58] radyjko: I'm with Simbax
[2016-04-03 00:29:00] krzys_h: YES! :D
[2016-04-03 00:29:30] krzys_h: We shall ban everyone who breakes the peace in this community
[2016-04-03 00:30:40] tomangelo: Our words are backed with nuclear bans
[2016-04-03 00:31:02] RaptorParkowsky: Of course changing logos right now isn't our main priority. I just want to say that earlier or later you will probably need that more than now in some cases.
[2016-04-03 00:31:30] tomaszkax86: We don't need to change logos. At all.
[2016-04-03 00:31:34] tomangelo: dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/vtcm0gg4o5d81tv/civilwar.png
[2016-04-03 00:31:56] krzys_h: Simbax: http://www.ceebot.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard this may be good resource on the programming course as it may have some posts by teachers who actually used ceebot in classrooms
[2016-04-03 00:32:15] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[2016-04-03 00:32:20] Simbax: wha, what is that forum
[2016-04-03 00:32:32] krzys_h: don't tell me you never saw it
[2016-04-03 00:32:39] krzys_h: it was mentioned a few times already
[2016-04-03 00:32:48] krzys_h: this is the official ceebot forum
[2016-04-03 00:32:54] krzys_h: there are even developer accounts there
[2016-04-03 00:32:57] erihel: krzys_h: is it ok to make packages now?
[2016-04-03 00:33:02] krzys_h: erihel: yes
[2016-04-03 00:33:19] Simbax: it is actually the first time I see it! O_o
[2016-04-03 00:33:42] krzys_h: Simbax: ceebot.com -> CeeBot -> Forum
[2016-04-03 00:33:48] krzys_h: it leads to this page
[2016-04-03 00:33:53] RaptorParkowsky: tomangelo: I don't get that Marvel... em... meme?
[2016-04-03 00:34:13] RaptorParkowsky: Possibly because I didn't watched them all.
[2016-04-03 00:34:33] tomangelo: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/captain-america-civil-war-4-pane-captain-america-vs-iron-man
[2016-04-03 00:35:06] Simbax: Ironman and Cpt America just started arguing and superheroes take sides so they call it Civil War
[2016-04-03 00:36:04] Simbax: It's relevant because their argument is as stupid as this about logos
[2016-04-03 00:36:23] Simbax: Also, I don't know what I'm talking about because I didn't see the movie
[2016-04-03 00:37:29] RaptorParkowsky: Well, I watched only Capitain America: The First Avenger looong time ago, and only because it was from director of the Jurassic Park 3...
[2016-04-03 00:38:12] krzys_h: fun fact: CeeBot default ipf is 5000, not 100 like in Colobot - http://www.ceebot.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=9&func=view&id=3&catid=9
[2016-04-03 00:39:32] tomaszkax86: ipf is a global setting, right?
[2016-04-03 00:39:44] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: I'm pretty sure it's not
[2016-04-03 00:39:50] krzys_h: but I might be wriong
[2016-04-03 00:40:25] krzys_h: actually, it is
[2016-04-03 00:40:37] krzys_h: static int      m_initimer;
[2016-04-03 00:40:42] krzys_h: in CBotStack
[2016-04-03 00:41:58] krzys_h: Actually, it is not. See CScript::m_ipf
[2016-04-03 00:42:23] tomaszkax86: So every program has it?
[2016-04-03 00:42:26] krzys_h: yes
[2016-04-03 00:42:49] krzys_h: it is amount of instructions per frame per program
[2016-04-03 00:42:56] krzys_h: and it's configurable on per-program basis
[2016-04-03 00:43:17] RaptorParkowsky: http://i.imgur.com/q4Gannl.png - After release of the 0.1.7b, this is another huge problem to fix (and it's not the logos this time...)
[2016-04-03 00:43:22] tomaszkax86: If a program contains a public function and it has ipf changed, does that change it for all robots?
[2016-04-03 00:43:46] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: what is that os?
[2016-04-03 00:44:03] krzys_h: tomaszkax86: is uses the timer of calling program
[2016-04-03 00:44:03] RaptorParkowsky: Who's responsible or Debian GOLD packages?
[2016-04-03 00:44:10] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: OdyX
[2016-04-03 00:44:18] krzys_h: and on Debian we have 0.1.7
[2016-04-03 00:44:21] RaptorParkowsky: :D
[2016-04-03 00:45:00] RaptorParkowsky: So why there's still old 0.1.2?
[2016-04-03 00:45:13] Simbax: Because you use Mint
[2016-04-03 00:45:29] RaptorParkowsky: Linux Mint uses other packages than Debian or sth?
[2016-04-03 00:45:55] krzys_h: RaptorParkowsky: pretty much every distribution has it's own repositories
[2016-04-03 00:45:57] krzys_h: http://packages.linuxmint.com/
[2016-04-03 00:46:09] Simbax: I had unpleasant experiences with Mint package repo
[2016-04-03 00:46:17] tomaszkax86: #linuxproblems
[2016-04-03 00:46:26] Simbax: tomaszkax86 ++ :D
[2016-04-03 00:46:58] Simbax: The most usable Linux OSs are Arch and Ubuntu
[2016-04-03 00:47:27] tomangelo: Well, I had better experience with Mint than Ubuntu
[2016-04-03 00:47:35] Simbax: The rest looks cool only on paper and fancy websites
[2016-04-03 00:47:50] krzys_h: I guess we stopped talking about the important Colobot stuff, so...
[2016-04-03 00:47:50] RaptorParkowsky: But Mint is from Ubuntu's family...
[2016-04-03 00:47:54] krzys_h: !coloirc stop
[2016-04-03 00:47:59] RaptorParkowsky: I don't really get that...
[2016-04-03 00:48:00] Simbax: At least for my usage
[2016-04-03 00:48:02] krzys_h: hey?
[2016-04-03 00:48:04] Simbax: So what
[2016-04-03 00:48:06] krzys_h: !coloirc end
[2016-04-03 00:48:12] ColoBOT: ColoIRC has ended
[2016-04-03 00:48:12] ColoBOT: Logs from this meeting are available at http://krzysh.pl/ColoBOT/soboirc/2016-04-02.txt
--- ColoIRC has been stopped by krzys_h 2016-04-03 00:48:12