2nd Revision of the TerranovaTeam & ICC logos

[RaptorParkowsky]

Here you can vote for new version of the TerranovaTeam and ICC logos. You can also discuss about change, differences and other philosophical aspects like why we need to change these logos and what's the reason of this refactoring of proportions in these logos.

[krzys_h]

It may be a good idea to quote discussion that happened so far here:

ColoBOT:
[colobot/colobot-misc master] 89ba104 https://git.io/vaQxK RaptorParkowsky: Fixed TerranovaTeam & ICC logos proportions and added title variants
22 Mar 19:36
Simbax:
"fixed"? What is "fixed"? Nobody complained about the logos and you dare change them without consulting with anyone and then commit the changes with a message "Fixed". I feel offended.
22 Mar 19:45
Simbax:
Nevermind, sorted it out on priv.
22 Mar 19:47
krzys_h:
I don't agree with this being the 'fixed' version, the previous ones were better
22 Mar 21:25
krzys_h:
Besides, why change something that is good and we all got used to already?
22 Mar 21:27
krzys_h:
This logo is already recognized by people, you cannot just change it for no good reason
22 Mar 21:28
tomaszkax86:
What was changed anyway? And why?
22 Mar 22:04
krzys_h:
tomaszkax86: http://imgur.com/a/J7omu
22 Mar 22:21
krzys_h:
why? that's exactly what I'm asking
22 Mar 22:21
erihel:
well calling it fixed is a bit strange
22 Mar 22:24
tomaszkax86:
To be honest, new versions look subjectively better, but did we actually discuss the need for change?
22 Mar 22:25
erihel:
but if you didn't start to argue here i wouldn't notice it ;p
22 Mar 22:25
krzys_h:
you can barely see this, but the colors have changed too
22 Mar 22:25
krzys_h:
tomaszkax86: I personally prefer the old ones, but it may be just that I'm so used to them already
22 Mar 22:26
krzys_h:
and we did NOT discuss that they need a change, Raptor suddenly decided to change them without telling anyone for no reason
22 Mar 22:27
erihel:
green is different but the blue one?
22 Mar 22:27
krzys_h:
BTW, changing a logo is not as simple as pushing to the repository, they are used in a lot of places, updating them is going to be a huge hassle
22 Mar 22:28
krzys_h:
erihel: blue changed background #23C3FF to #00C0FF and the letters from #00547D to #005080
22 Mar 22:29
tomangelo:
Looks like Raptor did something he usually tried to avoid - make some fragmentation
22 Mar 23:43
tomangelo:
Now there will be different versions of our logo around Internet
22 Mar 23:43

» RaptorParkowsky:
Sorry about the logos, but I just can't struggle those proportions and I thought that change would be good step forward, especially in time when we are not fully established community yet. Of course naming that "fixed" was a bad mistake, because the old ones wasn't bad designed logos or something, and I'm totally sorry for that bad chosen word in the name of the commit. The old ones was only non-perfect as it could be imo, so I decided to tweak them to be 100% compatible with official "COLOBOT" logo font and not to be so big change comparing to the old ones. I'll take the responsibility for replacing this logo in most of the places so don't worry about fragmentation. And I'm really sorry for not consulting this change with the others, but in these days I'm really determined for making any content because I have now not so much time for this and there's a lot of not finished graphic content on my HDD waiting for my free time. This isn't completely redesigned logo though. This is only an evolution of the old, good design.
23 Mar 07:37
» krzys_h:
@RaptorParkowsky but you realize that this logo is already in so many places you won't ve able to change them all?
23 Mar 07:59
» krzys_h:
And still, I petsonally prefer the old ones. I will not approve of changing them unless you make a poll and get most of the community to vote for YES.
23 Mar 08:01
» krzys_h:
There is no reason to change the logos everybody agreed on long ago now
23 Mar 08:02
» Simbax:
You know, the old design was kind of boring, so I think it's time for a complete redesign. I've worked all night on the TerranovaTeam logo and I'm pretty satisfied with the result, although I'm not sure if we can use the font for free. I may do the ICC version soon. Let me know what you think: http://i.imgur.com/qkuOt2J.png
23 Mar 08:33
» krzys_h:
@Simbax Awesome! We should start using the new one right away.
23 Mar 08:51
» RaptorParkowsky:
https://trello.com/b/6FROdZb5/icc-general - The poll for TerranovaTeam members.
23 Mar 22:42
» RaptorParkowsky:
@krzys_h : Of course I'm completely aware that "Internet never forget". But nobody complains about that we can still dig up old CocaCola or Microsoft (aka MicroSoft) logos. They're still recognizable despite differences, just like our old vs new logos.
23 Mar 22:46
» RaptorParkowsky:
@Simbax : "http://i.imgur.com/qkuOt2J.png" Nope. My photoshoping is better than yours ;P http://i.imgur.com/TQpsyyp.png (especially that green shadow...)
23 Mar 22:52
» tomaszkax86:
Why exactly is this poll on Trello? And is it actually a poll or just two cards you can "vote" for? Seriously, what are you doing?
24 Mar 01:33
» krzys_h:
Why is it even on Trello? We already discussed that Trello is NOT a place for such a poll because not all TerranovaTeam members look there often enough. Make it on the forum.
24 Mar 11:07
» krzys_h:
And I think there should be at least three options: "New look better, change", "New look better, but there is no reason to change them right now" and "Old are better"
24 Mar 11:09
» RaptorParkowsky:
Ok. Done. I thought we should use somehow this Trello until this will extinct...
24 Mar 12:01

[RaptorParkowsky]

I don't know why you guys don't like those new vectors? They're still similar in design with the old ones, only with better proportions that are true to original Colobot logo font. Please explain me why we wouldn't just start using that logos, especially now until we get more popular.

Creating a game with it's whole "brand" and franchise mythology isn't easy task and we should get used to that there will be a lot of similar situations where we'll be forced to do/change/fix/remake something controversial after first thought. This is very natural way of evolving and coming to perfection.

[Smok]

I don't know why you guys don't like those new vectors?

[Simbax]

I knew it! I knew there was definitely something wrong with the Ts. They're too bold for my taste.

[krzys_h]

• Everything in the logos is a lot too thick
  
• Plain old #00FF00 as our brand color, seriously? Be a bit more creative

Fixing those is basically equivalent to reverting to the old ones, so I do not think we need any change at all.

[Mrocza]

Very... candy.
Reminds me of these kind of webpages.

Edit:
I'd generally go with something more robust with a natural shade to it.


BTW the original feels like it was stretched vertically.

Sorry. I tend to go against the stream.

[Simbax]

Your version on the other hand looks totally stretched horizontally

And the originals aren't stretched vertically at all, look at the first post. They look stretched for some reason in the @Smok 's post.

[RaptorParkowsky]

You guys just hating and know nothing about designing things...

Old logos are basically... mathematicaly imperfect. They're supposed to be connecting with each other and they're both made on 512x512 px as the base, but they don't work well as they supposed to work from scratch that we originally was aiming for.

The biggest bugs that bothered me in old logos:

1. Useless nodes in "C" letters in ICC logo

Well, they just broking roundness here:

New vector "C" is based on original "C" from COLOBOT and Colobot: Gold Edition logo renders:

2. Almost all nodes aren't symmetric

This is huge pain-in-the-ass problem, especially in these basic but beautiful logos that are trying to fit in today modern standards, where Windows is actually Tiles and there's no place for gradients or 3D anymore...

Here's an one example of twin nodes that aren't actually twins, but there's more of it:

This left node is in position X = 120.344 (Y doesn't matter in this case):

Image is based on 512x512px size of page. So the right twin node should be in position 512 - 120.344 = 391.656. But where it is in fact?

GREAT! I have no any other comment about this. Just. GREAT...



3. The "T" letters tries to emulate original "T" from COLOBOT and GOLD logo in wrong way

So I fixed also that thing in the case of proportions:

@Smok : This wasn't supposed to work like that from scratch, it's only an accident.

[krzys_h]

Old logos are basically... mathematicaly imperfect.

Mathematical perfection doesn't matter at all since human eye will not notice a 1 pixel difference anyway. While we should think about that while designing the logo, it cannot be a reason to change them right now.

1. Useless nodes in "C" letters in ICC logo

This doesn't matter at all, nobody will ever notice this.

2. Almost all nodes aren't symmetric

Okay, this is almost 9 pixels off. But since nobody noticed this until you proved this with numbers, this also falls in the "doesn't matter" category.

3. The "T" letters tries to emulate original "T" from COLOBOT and GOLD logo in wrong way

Why do you assume that T was supposed to imitate the T in COLOBOT logo? It doesn't really look good when it's that thick. This logo is completly separate from the Colobot logo and there is no reason why they should be the same if they were designed differently.

[RaptorParkowsky]

@krzys_h : In the case of these logos mathematically perfection is upmost important. Not only for human eye, but for scalability and compatibility of the logos with each other. This useless nodes can be noticed in big scale, especially those outside ones . And yes, "T" and also "C" was supposed to imitate the original COLOBOT logo ones. I remember this clearly when 2 years ago I was designing these logos with @Simbax and we discussed about that on priv, but we didn't have an easy access to original 3D letters from Colobot logo back then to have a base for it.

By my changes I'm not saying that @Simbax past work is worthless or something. We all are still learning about programming, graphics, gamemaking etc. and it's natural that nobody will do something 100% perfectly. As opensource community we can just "patching" everybody's past work, make new/remastered content and together make it better and better. It's natural evolution of the opensource community. That's why I wanted to change these logos as "patch". They're not completely redesigned though.

[Simbax]

You guys just hating and know nothing about designing things...

If the whole world is against you, then there may actually be a little, tiny chance, that it is not the world that is wrong, but you. I suggest to think about it.

And thank you for saying I know nothing about designing, sure, I can only "copy" already made things after all, not that half of them needed creativity, lots of experiments, time and stress. But you know where is the difference? My stuff is already used in the game, whereas your models are useless outside your big dreams about professional CGI cinematic. You must learn that too much perfectionism is a disease, not a positive trait. There must be balance, which you clearly not posses.

I wasn't even that mad, I actually liked the new version except minor things, but you are making things worse and worse because of your wrong belief that your version is perfect and everyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot who doesn't know anything. Let me make a list of things you've done that made me turn against you (and I repeat again: I actually LIKED the new version):
* you committed your logos with a message "Fixed", whereas everyone except you was completely fine with the logos and by looking at this thread it seems that some other people still don't necessarily consider this new logo as "fixed", also on my personal note, as a person who designed the original logos, I felt purely offended, especially that these logos were chosen by TerranovaTeam AND the community and now someone implies that they need "fixing". You said that it was a poorly chosen word because of lack of your English skills, but the longer this thread goes the less I'm believing that.
* you didn't consult your changes with anyone, you've just sit one day randomly and pushed your changes to the repository. It was said by someone earlier, but I will repeat it here: you can't just change things such as logos as you want by pure definition of logos. A completely other thing is that you are working with people here. You know what team members do? They cooperate with each other. Notice that nearly all flame wars happened because of LACK OF PROPER COMMUNICATION, and it seems that we still haven't learned from them. You just decided all by yourself that our logo (notice the word: our) needs to be changed, because reasons you didn't give until now.
* I understood your restlessness when people were just hating without giving reasons, but right now you were given proper reasons and you didn't even bother with answering to them, you've just keep trying to prove that your version is better and everyone else is an idiot

You lost in my eyes as a co-worker, when I also consider our recent conversations. Be aware that I didn't mention some other "little" actions and sentences which... hurt me. Important note: I know these are ad hominem arguments, I am sorry, but how else am I supposed to respond to things which just offended me in such many ways? I haven't started this one flame war at least.

EDIT: I was writing this post too long it seems, but I've read the new posts and they don't change much in my points.

[DavivaD]

I like this new ICC logo one
About this new TT logo...... Too bold :/

[Schocker]

Even though I am already used to situations, where every damn redesign will result in complaints, I still feel like the old ones are perfectly fine. Sure, the proportions may be a bit off, and that's probably the reason why some people feel like the new designs "look subjectively better", but the whole boldness makes the logos feel quite "heavy" in my opinion (at least the TT one).
...although after looking at it for a while it doesn't seem to be THAT bad. But the way of introducing them... argh, that's not how things should be. What are we, Polish politicians, making some changes and then defending them without thinking that we could've made a mistake?

[Smok]

Don't get it wrong. The new logo is actually better, but just "T"s are too bold compared to previous. It's unnecessary radical change. Hmm... Maybe just make it "mathematically perfect" but leave font size as it was.

[Mrocza]

Nobody outside of the team would notice the difference.
I sure wouldn't if I hadn't seen this thread.

It's not a good idea to trash the morale over this.

[RaptorParkowsky]

I'm not going to change the boldiness of the font, it's accurate to that in official logo and you just have to get used to that. "TT" is a bit bigger than the "ICC" because there is only 2 letters, not 3.

@Simbax :

Of course the whole world is against me. It's huge conspiracy! It's all because I'm the chosen one, who always thinks about such low-level things like moving the nodes/vertexes in the rounded, aesthetic positions and making everything as clean as possible...

Rubbish...



My models aren't in game all because there's no technical way to use them in current game's engine yet. And I just started to manage the whole complicated process of remastering them, so there will be a lot things to think about.

I wasn't consulting that all because this is really small change that was meant to be only a "patch" that nobody could even notice and was meant to be succesive replace the old logos. I thought I was trusted contributor in this project and this thing what I done with the logo will be enough safe to commit just like new textures for Earth, Terranova and Moon planets (which was almost completely unnoticed and nobody complained about them, even @Emxx52 ...). Well, sorry for that idea and bad implementing.

I already said sorry about wrong commit's name. Please, don't make this more melodramatic and forgive me or just revert that *cut* already. I guess I'm done with that.

Cheers!

[krzys_h]

I wasn't consulting that all because this is really small change that was meant to be only a "patch" that nobody could even notice and was meant to be succesive replace the old logos. I thought I was trusted contributor in this project and this thing what I done with the logo will be enough safe to commit just like new textures for Earth, Terranova and Moon planets

Logos do not work like [insert any other game asset name here]. Logos are meant to be easily recognizable by people, so changing them is not really a good thing if there is no good reason for it, and every minor change should be discussed. If our words are not enough to convince you, look for example at a Wikipedia article about logos, it says exactly the same thing:

Because logos are meant to represent companies' brands or corporate identities and foster their immediate customer recognition, it is counterproductive to frequently redesign logos.

---

or just revert that *cut* already

Actually, I already did
https://github.com/colobot/colobot-misc/...c461fe491c

[RaptorParkowsky]

Fine. So I'm done with this community. Enough wasting my time for this. Thank you very much.

[tomangelo]

I was afraid this will end up like this. I begin to suspect that there is some curse over our community. If it's all chill and quiet for a longer time, there must be a quarrel and in the end someone is resentful and want to leave.
@RaptorParkowsky : You had good intentions, but you made bad decision. We aren't professionals, a lot of us did something more or less stupid. You thought that something is working in certain way, but it turns out in different way. That's why we should discuss everything before doing something. This time nothing happened, commit was reverted, nothing blew out, just remember that somebody might have something important to say in future. If you really want to leave us, then no one is forcing you (and nobody of us), but nobody wants to kick you out because of that. Chill a bit and think about this situation.