2nd Revision of the TerranovaTeam & ICC logos

[Simbax]

Heh, everybody says something like that at some point, nothing new.

[Emxx52]

I just love it when someone suddenly appears with a bunch of brilliant ideas. It kinda brings back memories. Pretty painful ones, but oh well :3.

It's so nice to know that after all these years there are still some... individuals who prove that all this talking/polite asking/discussing/establishing basic rules was actually pointless. Congratulations.

You guys just hating and know nothing about designing things...

Do you even realize what you were basically trying to imply here? Calling oneself a genius is a no-no.

Old logos are basically... mathematicaly imperfect.

I shall call an exorcist.

but they don't work well as they supposed to work from scratch that we originally was aiming for.

Yipe! How wude!

GREAT! I have no any other comment about this. Just. GREAT...

FANTASTIC! You wrote an essay about how meaningful some meaningless numbers were. Just. FANTASTIC. I've been bothered by this 8.344 of difference ever since Simbax made this logo, but thanks to you and your fix I can finally be happy again.

mathematically perfection is upmost important. Not only for human eye, but for scalability

as if SVGs weren't scalable...

By my changes I'm not saying that @Simbax past work is worthless or something.

I guess you just fixed it without anyone knowing anything, just because you had felt like doing so. 'Twas not disrespectful at all.

As opensource community we can just "patching" everybody's past work, make new/remastered content and together make it better and better. It's natural evolution of the opensource community. That's why I wanted to change these logos as "patch".

As an opensource community we are obliged to listen to those who are obviously much more competent, and so we should be forced to accept any of their brilliant ideas. After all, we know nothing about designing things...

I'm not going to change the boldiness of the font, it's accurate to that in official logo and you just have to get used to that.

Of course, you're the design mastermind here after all. These words instantly made me start getting used to the boldiness. What am I, no... what is the Universe compared to your genius mind?

Rubbish...

Yeah, denying something like that by trying to be ironic is pretty rubbish. Guess brilliant minds don't follow conventional logic.

I wasn't consulting that all because this is really small change that was meant to be only a "patch" that nobody could even notice and was meant to be succesive replace the old logos.

Have you ever heard about morality and conscience?

which was almost completely unnoticed and nobody complained about them, even @Emxx52 ...

Good to know about that. Hilarious - how is anyone of us supposed to complain about anything if it remains almost completely unnoticed? And you did nothing to make us notice, as it is obviously the way that is to your liking.

Please, don't make this more melodramatic and forgive me

So you will be able to pretend you forgot the rules yet another time? How about 'no'? :>


Ah, and sorry... please don't feel offended. You should rather feel ashamed.

[Mrocza]

This went far enough. Can we please stop?

Mr Raptor did make a mistake. And he knows perfectly well now that he should not have touched the logo. But a rant like the one above is kind of an overkill. Any further posts in this thread will be counter-productive and will hurt the team.

[Simbax]

@Mrocza I don't agree, the last posts from @RaptorParkowsky obviously imply that he did not get what he had done wrong, he just decided to sulk and I'm 99% sure he still thinks we are idiots who don't get his "art". If such an action happened once, it shall happen again unless the person learns from the previous mistakes and wishes to not make them again. And frankly, I do not want this to happen again.

[tomaszkax86]

Is someone here studying or have a degree in art or graphics design? I can ask my sister, who is an art major, or my friend, who has graphic design degree, about these logos. But seriously, I thought we wouldn't have to deal with this kind of situations.

[Simbax]

@tomaszkax86 it's not about the logos themselves, it's about the attitude.

[tomaszkax86]

@Simbax I know. Someone who considers themselves an expert in a field needs to provide something more than just "I am right and you are wrong" type of argument. Art is subjective and Raptor decided that his opinion is more important than others'. Some of his arguments do make a point, but the rest make no sense. Which is why I can't take him seriously. Still, this is ridiculous situation and shouldn't have happened in the first place.

[DavivaD]

Fine. So I'm done with this community. Enough wasting my time for this. Thank you very much.

#ragequit ?

In order not thought that it I annoy

// Excuse me? ~ Simbax

[RaptorParkowsky]

Yeah, I'm back to say again what kind of genius I am, or name this what you'd like. I don't care anyway.

I shall call an exorcist.

You do really "shall" (whatever it means). Or should. Or must!
Of course, after all I'm a monster. And mathemathically correct logos are black magic. Let's call the priest, pope or even the Ghostbusters and burn it on the stack before it'll become Harry Potter!

Yeah, no matter what I do, I'll be always wrong.
When I say that I hate math and don't want to learn more of it - I'm just ignoramus bastard.
When I actually made something that's actually correct with any basic math - I'm a demon!

Thank you for treating me like a silly blondie. Maybe it's just my overinterpretation, but, well, you know...

Yipe! How wude!

I can't really translate this part. Must I be scared because of that?

FANTASTIC! You wrote an essay about how meaningful some meaningless numbers were. Just. FANTASTIC. I've been bothered by this 8.344 of difference ever since Simbax made this logo, but thanks to you and your fix I can finally be happy again.

"Increasingly, the mathematics will demand the courage to face its implications."
~Ian Malcolm, "Jurassic Park", 7th iteration.

as if SVGs weren't scalable...

Of course, it is scalable. But you know that the bigger scale of the logo shows more bugs of the design? I already explained and SHOWED that clearly in one of my previous posts. Good vector logo should look flawless in ANY resolution.

"Inevitably, underlying instabilities begin to appear."
~Ian Malcolm, "Jurassic Park", 4th iteration.

"Flaws in the system will now become severe."
~Ian Malcolm, "Jurassic Park", 5th iteration.

I guess you just fixed it without anyone knowing anything, just because you had felt like doing so. 'Twas not disrespectful at all.

Thinking that way the making GOLD also is disrespectful.

Have you ever heard about morality and conscience?

No. I'm mad scientist, you know... AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHH!!!

Ah, and sorry... please don't feel offended. You should rather feel ashamed.

I actually feel both. I'm ashamed not only because that I made bad decision of pushing the logos to repo too early without consulting that with others, but also because of that I must explain to you every single particle of how life is working.

Mr Raptor did make a mistake. And he knows perfectly well now that he should not have touched the logo.

Nope. I rather wouldn't be myself if I wouldn't touch those logos earlier or later. I'm rather fully aware that I made a huge mistake in the implementation those logos in such way I did.



Enough of this worthless citation parade that I'm already satisfactorily ashamed enough. I just wanted to notice that I actually won the poll. Most of you guys voted on "New look better, but there is no reason to change them right now" thingie. "New look better, change" and "Old are better" answers ended fifty-fifty in this poll and none of them have more votes than the second option. The poll itself ended on 31.03.2016 as I planned.

So, if there's no reason for implementing those logos right now, when will be more proper time for this? Premiere of the 0.1.8-9? 0.2.0? Or maybe another Diversity campaign? Let's discuss!

[krzys_h]

They will be changed if a need appears. Honestly, I don't think we need to change them at all, at least not any time soon.
"no reason to change them right now" != "there is going to be a reason to change them"

[RaptorParkowsky]

The reason is quite certain and obvious. It's name is unification (or defragmentation) of the TerranovaTeam assets.

This is funny, but I just realized that you actually accepted this logo proportions in their 3D version and officially used it in the promotion purposes without any complaining.


Here's comparison between raw render of the 3D logo and finished vector logo:

So why are you complaining now, when I want to unify this design for both vector and 3D version of the logos? From my point of view this is only stopping evolution of the project and you just don't understand what I want to achieve.

[tomaszkax86]

What you want to achieve is meaningless. It won't improve Colobot. And, as a matter of fact, your whining about logos is halting the project. Instead of concentrating our efforts into developing our game and solving real problems, we have to sit here and discuss whether we should slightly change the logo because it's not perfect. I'm sick and tired of this. Fate of this community does not depend on the *cut* logo. This won't change anything so stop pushing it.

Your latest actions have been undermining integrity of this community. Reconsider your priorities before it's too late.

[krzys_h]

This is funny, but I just realized that you actually accepted this logo proportions in their 3D version and officially used it in the promotion purposes without any complaining.

If you look carefully, the shading on the 3D version makes it look visually thinner, because the top part of the letters is smaller relative to the bottom part. Human eyes are not "mathematically perfect".

And it's your fault, you changed the proportions without telling anyone, and nobody really paid attention to such details because we trusted (notice the past tense!) that you'll make the 3D logo match the official 2D version as accurately as possible.

So why are you complaining now, when I want to unify this design for both vector and 3D version of the logos?

You should make the 3D version match the "more official" (because more frequently used) 2D version, not the other way around.

From my point of view this is only stopping evolution of the project and you just don't understand what I want to achieve.

You are the one stopping the evolution of the project, since a few weeks we are doing nothing but arguing about your "fixed logos".

[tomangelo]

So, who is behind about leaving this topic, not changing logo for now and start making Gold true, especially when we're now in "more often Releases" mode?

[krzys_h]

Why ask something that was already answered in a poll?
YES - @CHmSID @Schocker @Smok @tomaszkax86 @Emxx52 @krzys_h @Simbax
NO - @DavivaD @OdyX @RaptorParkowsky

[Simbax]

So why are you complaining now, when I want to unify this design for both vector and 3D version of the logos? From my point of view this is only stopping evolution of the project and you just don't understand what I want to achieve.

Is this a revenge for the times when we were renaming from PPC to TT and ICC? I remember that you wanted us to have a 3D logo, but a 2D one was chosen anyway, as we are all well aware.

Your 3D version made LATER is of course more accurate, important and perfect than the 2D version! After all, we know nothing about design. Especially me. Nothing at all. Only one of my best friends @RaptorParkowsky, who cares about his friends and fellow co-workers, is qualified for making design.

Oh, sorry, I've mistaken you for Raptor, a person I actually trusted. You know what? *cut* you. I really wanted to be nice, I really wanted to communicate with you to set things right, also I really wanted to ignore your impertinent behaviour but the only thing you care about is your ill obsession about your vision of Colobot. I see no longer point in trying to communicate with a person who is older than me and therefore should be more mature, but behaves like a little child who blackmails their friends that he won't play with them until they play with his very specific toy. You literally said that, publicly, and directly in my face on priv. You said you wouldn't work with us until we accepted your conditions. There is proof in the logs from the recent ColoIRC and I have a screenshot from our little conversation, probably the last one by the way. I don't care if you go away and sulk like you did a week ago. I don't want to work with you any more. I no longer trust you. I don't know how you managed that, but there needs to be a lot of talent involved in losing all the positive reputation earned in a few years in a *cut* week, moreover because of a bunch of some stupid vectors. A lot of talent.

I'm giving myself two warnings for this post, whatthefuckever. Someone give me even the third so I will be silenced for a week, give me even two more, and I shall be silenced for eternity. Because of this stupid thread I can't even fully focus on my private stuff, so that will be a positive change. I'm done with this thread. This is all too toxic and I can't stand that I'm not able to fix that. I don't think it is fixable any more anyway.

edit: Well, I can't give myself warnings. That's a shame, because I've definitely broken the Netiquette or whatever.

// I could give you a warning but I don't want to. Telling him the truth in a brutal way is the only thing we can do right now. ~ @krzys_h

[CHmSID]

I think this thread has went far enough. If Raptor doesn't draw conclusions from the above posts, there is nothing else we can do to change his way of thinking.
IMO it's even scarier than the April's fool joke we recently had. This community is clearly on a collision course and something needs to be done.
Changing the width of a letter in the logo is too trivial to loose a capable member over it. @RaptorParkowsky I urge you to drop the matter and as @tomangelo said, focus on making Colobot GOLD genuinely better. It was said that the logos do not impact the fate of the Colobot project, and I think this is true in the current circumstances. You made some practically indistinguishable changes, effectively wasting your own time as well as other people's nerves.

As a member who doesn't get involved much in the discussions here, I think I'm as objective as it'll ever get here. Understand that you are not prosecuted for your mistakes here. People make mistakes all the time. The problem is you keep bringing this up when everybody else is done talking about it and already expressed their opinions. Please see that you are only making your situation worse here. A lot of respect is lost at an alarming rate here. Think why initially you were chosen as the Project Director? Do you really want to be "that guy who rage-quit couple of years ago"? You get to choose.

I think this thread is getting close to it's use-by date and should be archived soon.

PS Colobot is a game mainly for children to learn programming. Please at least moderate some of the language here.

[RaptorParkowsky]

Ten post będzie po polsku, gdyż chcę mieć pełną kontrolę nad tym co teraz powiem, bez grzebania się z swoją "angielszczyzną", przez którą zresztą zapewne narobiłem część kłopotów.

And it's your fault, you changed the proportions without telling anyone, and nobody really paid attention to such details because we trusted (notice the past tense!) that you'll make the 3D logo match the official 2D version as accurately as possible.
You should make the 3D version match the "more official" (because more frequently used) 2D version, not the other way around.

Dobrze, czyli teraz narobiłem Ci powodów do nie znienawidzenia logo 3D? Okej, zezwalam w pełni świadomie na revertnięcie jego razem z logiem ICC z repo colobot-misc. Jednak nigdy nie licz że wyprę się tego, iż wersja 3D jest taka a nie inna ze względu na to, jak oryginalne logo Colobot wygląda. W końcu pierwotnym założeniem tego logo było to, by było ono kanciaste i ogólnie w stylu oryginalnego logo.

Is this a revenge for the times when we were renaming from PPC to TT and ICC? I remember that you wanted us to have a 3D logo, but a 2D one was chosen anyway, as we are all well aware.

Nie. Wtedy były stare dzieje i jeśli rzeczywiście wtedy aż tak bardzo marudziłem by pozostać przy 3D, to robiłem to tylko ze względu na ogólny design Colobota, który jak wiadomo jest bardzo staromodny i niemal wszystko jest tu kolorowe, trójwymiarowe i kojarzące się z sci-fi lat 60, co chciałem i nadal chciałbym w pewnej części zachować. W końcu i tak zrozumiałem, że 2D i tak jest konieczne ze względu na wyższą elastyczność użycia, więc zaakceptowałem ich obecność, sprowadzając logotypy w wersji 3D jako uzupełnienie oryginalnej wersji dla celów promocyjnych.

@RaptorParkowsky I urge you to drop the matter and as @tomangelo said, focus on making Colobot GOLD genuinely better.

Tak też robiłem. Różnica w tym, że starałem się troszczyć o całe nasze środowisko społeczności, nie tylko nad samą grą, gdyż po prostu nie jestem programistą i brak mi jakichkolwiek innych umiejętności/uprawnień, by się skupić bezpośrednio na grze. Robiłem to, w czym poniekąd miałem kwalifikacje. I wielokrotnie zaznaczałem, że podmiana logo w większości miejsc miała być moją robotą w moim podrzędnym wątku, co nie ingerowałoby w ogóle w moc przerobową reszty członków teamu. Nie ingerowałaby nawet w moje tradycyjne i rutynowe testy z usuniętym katalogiem "save" i klikaniem w grze tak, by osiągnąć buga czy innego wycieka pamięci.

Please see that you are only making your situation worse here. A lot of respect is lost at an alarming rate here. Think why initially you were chosen as the Project Director? Do you really want to be "that guy who rage-quit couple of years ago"? You get to choose.

Wiem o tym, dlatego przeszedłem teraz na polski, gdyż po prostu nie umiem dyskutować po angielsku. Czytając swoje posty teraz mam wrażenie, że nie wszystko opisałem jasno i z odpowiednim tonem emocjonalnym, jak mógłbym to zrobić pisząc swoją tradycyjną ścianę tekstu, jak to było za czasów PPC. Wszystko jest drętwe, sztuczne, mało szczegółowe i bez jakiejkolwiek idei. Cóż, przejście ICC, a także i TerranovaTeam w całości na język angielski było jednym z głównych powodów, przez które tak mało piszę na forum i nie staram się czegokolwiek organizować jak za starych dobrych lat, gdy rzeczywiście pełniłem rolę arbitra projektu i miałem jeszcze cokolwiek dojrzałego i respektowalnego do powiedzenia.

Oh, sorry, I've mistaken you for Raptor, a person I actually trusted. You know what? *cut* you. I really wanted to be nice, I really wanted to communicate with you to set things right, also I really wanted to ignore your impertinent behaviour but the only thing you care about is your ill obsession about your vision of Colobot. I see no longer point in trying to communicate with a person who is older than me and therefore should be more mature, but behaves like a little child who blackmails their friends that he won't play with them until they play with his very specific toy. You literally said that, publicly, and directly in my face on priv. You said you wouldn't work with us until we accepted your conditions. There is proof in the logs from the recent ColoIRC and I have a screenshot from our little conversation, probably the last one by the way. I don't care if you go away and sulk like you did a week ago. I don't want to work with you any more. I no longer trust you. I don't know how you managed that, but there needs to be a lot of talent involved in losing all the positive reputation earned in a few years in a *cut* week, moreover because of a bunch of some stupid vectors. A lot of talent.

Masz rację @Simbax, jestem idiotą. Przyznaję, jestem infantylny i po prostu głupi. I do tego kawał ze mnie skurwiela.

Cóż, nie będę ukrywał że przeżywam ostatnio trudny okres w swoim życiu. Można powiedzieć depresyjny. Zmieniam co moment tryb życia, chodzę niewyspany i do tego staram się na siłę czegokolwiek nowego nauczyć i coś zrobić dla projektu, bo wiecznie prześladuje mnie wrażenie, że w porównianiu z choćby @krzys_h robię po prostu za mało. Nie umiem kodzić, webdevować, organizować, adminować... w zasadzie to nic mądrego i najbardziej potrzebnego w tym projekcie nie umiem. Przez ostatnie dwa lata trwania projektu ratowałem się jedynie podstawową znajomością GIMP, Inkscape i Blendera, by od czasu do czasu się czegoś nauczyć i raz na jakiś czas pokazać i/lub wdrożyć coś dobrego. Liczyłem, że tak będzie i tym razem. Choć generalnie nawet na tym polu nie mam ani krzty talentu, co starałem się zawsze nadrabiać swoimi pedantycznymi filozofiami. W sumie nic dziwnego, że nie traktujecie mnie poważnie. Jak ktoś psychicznie chory, odporny na wiedzę programistyczno-matematyczną mówi nagle, że jego praca jest "matematycznie poprawna", to coś takiego nie może być traktowane poważnie. I jeszcze jak ten głupi próbowałem robić z tego jako ostatni atut, dzięki któremu mogę czuć się w tej społeczności potrzebny. Specjalista ds. Estetyki Colobotowej i Kanonu Designu EPSITEC. Jestem durniem.

You are the one stopping the evolution of the project, since a few weeks we are doing nothing but arguing about your "fixed logos".

Masz rację. W końcu w przeciwieństwie do większości z Was się tutaj nie rozwinąłem nic a nic od kilku dobrych lat. Pykałem sobie na tym swoim śmiesznym, starym komputerku pedantycznie złożonym z używanych części w warunkach wręcz pokojowo-laboratoryjnych, robiąc niezbyt ambitne, choć ciężkie obliczeniowo CGI i manualnie składając przez rok "Nowy Schemat Katalogów GOLD", które Ty zrobiłeś w końcu w tydzień, by to rzeczywiście działało. Żałosne z mojej strony.

Wypaliłem się. To pewne. Teraz to już nic nie jestem w stanie zrobić i nie jestem pewien, czy jest w ogóle sens cokolwiek zaczynać i kontynuować choćby naukę graficzenia. Jestem pusty i nie mam potrzebnego talentu. Zmarnowałem się.



Tak więc przepraszam wszystkich. Przepraszam za tę dziecinadę. Swojej roboty jednak nie żałuję i całości się nie wypieram, bo po prostu wiem, że dla Colobota była i jest słuszna. Ale nie wyszło. Wracajcie więc do pracy.

[Mrocza]

This one's gonna be in Polish as I'd like to have full control over what I'm about to say without wrestling with my "English" which might have been a source of some of my troubles.

And it's your fault, you changed the proportions without telling anyone, and nobody really paid attention to such details because we trusted (notice the past tense!) that you'll make the 3D logo match the official 2D version as accurately as possible.
You should make the 3D version match the "more official" (because more frequently used) 2D version, not the other way around.

So this time I gave you a reason to not hate the 3D logo? Ok, I allow for a full revert of the logos (including ICC) from colobot-misc repo. However do not expect me to deny that the 3D version is how it is because of the looks of the original Colobot logo. The primary principle was for the logo to be in the edgy style of the original one.

Is this a revenge for the times when we were renaming from PPC to TT and ICC? I remember that you wanted us to have a 3D logo, but a 2D one was chosen anyway, as we are all well aware.

No. These were olden times and if in fact I did whine so much to go for 3D I did that for the overall Colobot design which as we know is old-fashioned and almost everything is colorful, three-dimensional and loosely related with 60s sci-fi what I wanted and stil want to preserve. In the end I understood 2D being necessary because of its elasticity so I accepted it, making 3D logos a mere supplementation of the original version for the sake of promotion.

@RaptorParkowsky I urge you to drop the matter and as @tomangelo said, focus on making Colobot GOLD genuinely better.

That is what I did. The difference is that I wanted to take care of the community as a whole not just the game as I'm just not a programmer and as such I lack skills to focus on the game directly. I did what I could. I pointed out, multiple times, that switching the logo in most places was supposed to be my job which would not interfere with the routine of the team. It wouldn't interfere even with my routine, that is save catalog deletion for bug and memeory leakage hunting.

Please see that you are only making your situation worse here. A lot of respect is lost at an alarming rate here. Think why initially you were chosen as the Project Director? Do you really want to be "that guy who rage-quit couple of years ago"? You get to choose.

I know about that, That's why I just switched to Polish, as I just can't lead a proper discussion in English. After reading my posts I had the impression that not everything was stated clearly and with the right emotional tone as I could have done by writing a wall of text as I did in the times of PPC. Everything is stiff, crude, simple without any juice whatsoever. The transition of ICC and TerranovaTeam entirely to English was one of the reasons why I write so little on the forums and I do not attempt to arrange anything like in the good old days when I had something valuable to write.

Oh, sorry, I've mistaken you for Raptor, a person I actually trusted. You know what? *cut* you. I really wanted to be nice, I really wanted to communicate with you to set things right, also I really wanted to ignore your impertinent behaviour but the only thing you care about is your ill obsession about your vision of Colobot. I see no longer point in trying to communicate with a person who is older than me and therefore should be more mature, but behaves like a little child who blackmails their friends that he won't play with them until they play with his very specific toy. You literally said that, publicly, and directly in my face on priv. You said you wouldn't work with us until we accepted your conditions. There is proof in the logs from the recent ColoIRC and I have a screenshot from our little conversation, probably the last one by the way. I don't care if you go away and sulk like you did a week ago. I don't want to work with you any more. I no longer trust you. I don't know how you managed that, but there needs to be a lot of talent involved in losing all the positive reputation earned in a few years in a *cut* week, moreover because of a bunch of some stupid vectors. A lot of talent.

You are right @Simbax, I am an idiot. I admit I am childish and stupid. On top of that I'm a one ugly mo******er.

Well... I'm not gonna hide that I'm living though a tough time in my life. One might say depressing time. I'm not sleeping well and I'm forcing myself to learn anything and do something for that project because I constantly have an impression that in comparison to for example krzys_h I do not much at all. I can't code, webdev, organise, admin... In fact I can't do anything valuable in this project.  For the last two years I've been tinkering with my skills in GIMP, Inkscape and Blender to learn something and once in a while do something useful. I hoped for this time to be just like that even though I have no talent even in this field what I attempted to patch with my filosofy. It doesn't surprise me that you don't threat it seriously when someone resistant to programing and mathematical wisdom tells you that his work is mathematically correct. I was foolish attempting to make this a merit which would make me feel needed in this community. Specialist in esthetics and canon EPISTEC design. I'm a twit.

You are the one stopping the evolution of the project, since a few weeks we are doing nothing but arguing about your "fixed logos".

You are right. Unlike most of you I did not make any progress here for a few years. I'm clicking on my funny, old computer assembled with used parts rendering not so ambitious CGI and manually assembling the "New GOLD Catalog Scheme" which you eventually did in a week. I'm pathetic.

I burned out. That's for sure. I'm not capable of doing anything anymore and I'm not certain whether there is any sense to start anything new or continue to learn, for instance, graphics editing. I'm hollow, I don't have what it takes. It's all wasted. 

I'd like to apologise. Apologise for all of this. I do not regret the work I've done because I know it was for Colobot and it was good. It didn't turn out very well. You can now get back to work.